UPDATE Replacing injectors, lines, major tune up on GM 2-53.

[JD440ICD2006]

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Start of job, one rocker arm assembly and old fuel lines off.


Old injectors and throttle control rod assembly removed.


Old injectors, the one on the left is rebuilt and the one on the right is original.


New injectors installed and torqued down, new exhaust gasket in place.


Rocker arm assemblies in place and torqued down.


New fuel lines added. (At least one was leaking, a common problem)


Throttle control rod assembly installed and adjusted.

Next step is to do a cold adjustment on exhaust valves and set the timing on the injectors.

[bighamlin]

Interpret for us what you see, good or bad.

Thanks

[JD440ICD2006]

The good:

No gunk in the top end. No broken or excessively worn parts, very little wear on lifters. Good top edge surface on the head after it was cleaned.

The bad:

The top edge surface of the head had to be scraped and cleaned where someone had tried to use gasket compound instead of replacing the cork gasket, which is being replaced. Both injectors are being replaced although one was in better shape and newer, one of the pipes was cracked which was part of the fuel leak.
The exhaust manifold gasket fell apart and is being replaced.
Overall, this engine has many hours left in it. The best the DD dealer, this engine was built around 1975. It is an upgraded 2-53 with the air intake cut off butterfly in case of a run away.
The parts book list a "35" as the injectors in the original engine. The ones in this engine are "S45". They are the same spray pattern and angle, with a very slightly larger orifices in the tip.

[Lavoy]

Bigger orifice means more fuel I would think, more fuel means more power, and that can break things. I would guess the injectors you would want are N35.
Lavoy

[JD440ICD2006]

Lavoy,


That all makes perfect sense to me, BUT, the S 45 injectors have been in this engine since 1975. I guess it is slightly upgraded to take the extra fuel. One injector was original and it was stamped 1975, so the DD guy assumes that is about when the engine was built.
If you have other info, I am all ears.

[digitup]

Did they mention anything about the amount of fuel per stroke between the 35s and 45s On the larger motors (71 series)the injectors have a 12hp increase per injector .This would be a large increase in HP with just two injector units replaced.In the Detroit book it shows 2-53s from 30.3 to 68 HP without a turbo. Get that little Deere closer to the 60 horse and you would have one heck of a little dozer till something goes BANG.Injectors definitely make the power difference What was the horse power in those little Deeres when they were built?There will be a different HP rating today from back then also .Digitup.

[JD440ICD2006]

Digitup, good info and good points, but I think if anything, I may have only a slight HP increase over the original 2-53, but not nearly enough to twist the drive train out of it.
My DD manual shows a list of about 6 injectors that went in this engine. It started and ran good and smooth with the S 45 injectors that have been in it since who knows when (1975 we think). The reason I am changing them out is two fold. I had a small fuel leak that was getting in the fuel (cracked fuel lines), and I had some slobbering. (the engine, not me, I just grin real big when I am bulldozing but try not to slobber)

[Jimmy in NC]

I think the point Lavoy was making was simply that these crawlers aren't being made any more and parts get harder and harder to find. Just think of that as what seems like a small increase in power may result in catastrophic failure further down the line (finals, transmission, etc.)

It is your crawler and I say build it to suit you. I would say alot of what you are doing with the crawler will dictate wether or not you should have to worry about damaging the drveline.

The 420 I work with sees alot of hard pushing and wears 14" shoes with a high profile (read someone added height to the gousers). For that reason I'm hesitant to put a good engine clutch in it right now for fear I'll really engage some good red clay and she'll let loose with "an expensive sound."

Just some things to think about..

Keep up the pictures though.. having never been in a 2-53 I'm interested.

Jimmy in NC

[JD440ICD2006]

Jimmy, Good to hear from you.
Believe me when I say that all points are well taken. I enjoy hearing from folks that have experience, as I am still a green horn with these.
To my point, I am simply putting in the exact injector that has been in this engine from day one, according to the DD mechanic. One injector (the original) is stamped "1975". The DD mechanic says he has all reason to believe that the engine was built around that time. The other injector is stamped with an earlier year, but was rebuilt which accounts for the older year stamped on it.
So, my thinking is this, if it has been running for 30 some odd years with "S 45" injectors, they must be the right ones. It was obvious that no one has been in the top end for quite a while.
I want to always have the door open for opinions and comments, as I know very little compared to you guys.
Happy Holidays!!!!!

[Lavoy]

What the mechanic is not understanding, is there is no right injector for that engine, there is only the right injector for that engine relative to the application that it was designed for, or the HP output it spec'd for. While you may be putting back in what came in that engine for its original application, that may or may not have any relevance to the application it is in now. For example, if that had the largest injectors availalbe in it, and was running at maximum rated speed putting out double the HP of a standard 440 engine, would you still put it in just because that is what it came with? The 2-53 in a 440 was greatly detuned, at the very bottom of what the HP range was for that engine. Factory spec is going to be 33 gross flywheel HP at about 2200 RPM. It ran small injectors, was governed at a lower RPM, and I believe even used a different fuel pump. Installing an engine or components that yeild any additional HP over what it came with can lead to drivetrain damage on a working crawler if it is enough of a bump in HP. The engine will not run any better or worse with different size injectors, it just changes the HP output. If the 440 had an injector pump, you could just turn the fuel down, but with mechanical unit injectors, size is about the only control. Also I would guess that you will find that your engine is running a few hundred RPM over rated speed unless whoever put it in turned the high idle limit down, or you already have.
I'm not knocking your mechanic, but I am just guessing he does not understand the situation. Get this, I called my local Detroit shop the other day to get some parts for a 2-53, and the guy that answered the phone said Detroit never made a 2-53.
Lavoy

[JD440ICD2006]

Lavoy, It is interesting how we can get different answers to the same questions on this stuff. I have it happen at Deere and DD, not to mention other companies.
Here's what I do know. The 2-53 that is in my 440 has been in there for a long time. The injectors in that engine were in it from day one are "S45".
The specs on a "35": 8 spray holes, .005 hole size, 165 angle of spray.
The specs on an "S 45": 8 spray holes, .0055 hole size, 165 degree angle of spray.

I have a gas 440 and I think I would be seeing a gross difference in power between the two if these injectors were making that much more HP than original. The DD has a little more torque, but it will barely out push the gasser.


I have done most of the real work that this little jewel will see as long as I own it. I am now in restoration and show mode with it.

I understand exactly what you are saying, and I trust that I will not rip out the drive train. But hey, that is the falicy with this equipment, stuff breaks, we hope we can find the parts and knowledge to fix it.

[Lavoy]

If you aren't noticing a power increase over the gas, you probably aren't off too far. The late gassers got a bump in power that was supposed to make them the same power as the diesel, but they were still about 10% under as far as torque.
Lavoy

[JD440ICD2006]

Lavoy,

I know that my approach to this is far from scientific, but I really think I could feel a bump in HP output on the 2-53, especially since my 440 gasser is strong. It is a 1959 so it has the bumped up gas engine and was rebuilt about 30 hours ago.
Hey, worse case here is the 2-53 will be putting out gobs of HP and I will have to spend some money with you on parts.
Seriously, I will be rebuilding it so parts will be in order down the road. But, the days of pushing anything heavy are done for the 440 ICD. I wanted to wring it out on this project. I think it did well. I found most of the leaks, discovered the slobbering, and gave it a good work out. I could leave it like it is but one final is weaker than the other. So, I will eventually bring back to top condition, and leave it there for shows.

[digitup]

If your concern is to control your Detroit's slobber than lighten up on injectors and go to the smallest number. As the rings wear they get worse. From new they slobbered even in the show room the gaskets leaked .All injectors for this 53 series better work good .But its going to show on your torque curve with each injector up grade . One of your problems is you have an older motor with higher rate injectors you will have problems with slobber .I have 4 Detroit's and all have that habit 3 out of 4 of them get the hell ran out of them .I am sure that it is easer to teach my brain dead hound not to mark his spot than making these motors break the habit .A good Detroit has no manners and was created before the custom of environmentally containing your oil and half burnt fuel.So If your Deere dribbles where it stands .I guess it is a sign of Detroit power and age .Digitup

[kouvakis]

after you remove the rocker arm how do you ge the juel injector assemblies to come out. puller?? i cant find my engine manual and need to get mine cleaned out.
bill huddleston kouvakis@yahoo.com