center frame

[BLS]

Are the bolt patterns the same on the center frame (M61T) the same from MC thru 440icd? Will a GM 2-53 bolt up to all of them without any modifications?
Thanks
Brian

[Lavoy]

In terms of bolt pattern, I believe it will. As to any of the clutch linkage working, I am not sure. I would also question whether the single piece center section will tolerate the weight and vibration of the Detroit.
Lavoy

[BLS]

Lavoy,

How is the 440 center frame different than the older models, are there extra supports for a 2-53?

Thanks
Brian

[Lavoy]

It is a two piece center affair, sustantially heavier than the single piece. I has 4 bolts that hold it in the frame instead of two, different style throwout bearing holder and clutch linkage, and assorted other differences.
What is it you are trying to do? If you are trying to stuff a Detroit into anything other than a 440, crimp one injector line off or it will break everything behind it in short order.
Lavoy

[BLS]

Lavoy,
I'm not trying to do anything, just wondering why the 440 had the 2-53 option and the others did not. I did not think there was much change from the 420/430 to the 440. I have not been around a 440 so I don't know what the differences are.

Also, have seeing several posts that parts are going to be harder to get, so looking to the future for an alterante power sourse.

It would be great to see more detailed photos posted of different crawler models showing the differences (in detail) for those who just dont know (like me).

Thanks for your reply.
Brian

[Lavoy]

Brian,
There were running changes in so many different things that it would awful hard to do.
In just the 420 alone there were at least 3 if not 5 different center sections. One for the Phase 1 crawlers, one or two for the phase two crawlers, and at least 2 for the Phase 3 crawlers.
Another reason for no other diesel option was when the diesel was introduced in the 440's, they had to come up with a whole new transmission to stand the extra power and torque.
I have read articles about making the two banger into a gas, and they tried it, but with no center main bearing, it just would not stand up. Really may not have been the demand at the time the older ones were being built, at least not enough to completely tool up to do so. In the scheme of things, not a lot of numbers there. Even in the 440's, I don't think it was over 10,000 units.
Lavoy

[Stan Disbrow]

Hi,

Oh, yeah. The 2-53 can eat transmissions and final drives the way kids eat candy. At least, they do on the wheel tractors and I expect that the crawlers are no different.

I say it that way because I have seen many 2-53 equipped 440 wheel tractors in my time, but only a couple crawlers. So I won't say I'm an expert on the 440 crawlers.

When I was growing up, the family business was JD dealership. We had quite a few of the 435 and 440 2-53 powered tractors around. They kept coming in with lunched drivelines because that cute little diesel liked eating bearings, gears and shafts for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

Oddly enough, the 435 was originally marketed as a haying tractor. It had a 1000 RPM PTO to handle the extra power. Deere had a nifty hay 'cuber' bailer that went nicely with 1000 RPM PTO machines. It would take just the leaves off and press them into a small cube and then shoot the cubes into a wagon, much like a corn chopper. Neat.

The 435 (or a 440ID if you didn't mind the all-yellow paint job) was great coupled with that bailer (can't recall the model number now). In this application the 2-53 didn't bust things, as most of the power was heading out the PTO to the bailer. It was when the farmers went and used the 435 for something else (like plowing) that the diesel engine became hungry for something other than #2 fuel oil.

In the 440 application, I suspect that the designers figured that all the power would be used running hydraulics. Either way, the driveline would be OK, right? We know now that this wasn't right, as is usual when it comes to hindsight....

That's the long story. The short one is that I surely would *not* try and stick a 2-53 into something older because I'm sure that the rest of the machine would soon wind up looking like a pretzel!

Stan

[Lavoy]

I have heard, not sure about it, that the 435 never got the bigger transmission that the 440's did. Don't know if they figured that an ag tractor would not see hard enough use to bother or what.
Lavoy