Deere "relife" program for the 450 and 350

[vestor_guy]

As a side note, are other members on this forum aware of the Deere "relife" program. That was sure a surpise to me and how long did the program last?

http://www.roscommonequipmentcenter.com ... es/nn6.pdf

[Tigerhaze]

We ran across that link last year, so some of us were aware but good to bring up as we have had a lot of new members since then:

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... ght=relife

It's a great pamphlet, isn't it? Wish I had the dough to get a relife 350C.

Since the Missouri Department of Conservation was one of the driving agencies for the relife program, LeonardL may have some more "behind the scenes" information that wasn't in the pamphlet. Not trying to put him on the spot though.

[LeonardL]

The Deere re-life program was a dismal failure for us with the State of Missouri. To Deeres credit it wasn't all their fault. The powers that were at that time tried to have Deere re-life a dozer that wasn't intended to be re-lifed in the first place. Deere explained to them what the intention of the project was and they still wanted them to go forward on what they wanted.
The MDC (Missouri Department of Conservation) wanted for some unknown reason, to have Deere re-life an old straight 350. The program was intended to bring the 350Cs up to 350D specs! It was never intended to re-life an older machine. A machine that was older than a 350C.
The cost too was a factor and myself and others could not convince the powers that were that we could do the same re-life for less money and get a machine that was built to what we needed at the time. The only difference would be that ours would not have the new re-life serial number.
So they had this old straight 350 "Relifed" anyway! And now there is an old straight 350 out there, with no reverser and still has manual, dry steering clutches and it has a 3179 engine in it with a new re-life serial number! With a strobe light on top! It cost the state of Missouri just shy of 33K!
At that time Deere was telling us they would completely re-life our 350Cs for 33K. We did four of these machines in house, all 350Cs and did more to them than Deere was going to do and did them for less than 18K each. New engines, rebuilt the Reversers, Transmissions, Steering clutches and brakes, new hydraulics, hoses and all and even replaced the frames on one of the machines. They were completely torn down to nothing and then completely re-built.
Even after we had proven to them, ( The powers that were) that it could be done, they instead opted to go with newer equipment. 400Gs as it were and they were close to 40K! My personal jury is still out on that machine! Talk about a pig in a poke!! But that is my opinion!
The re-life program was shot down before it got off the ground. I think ultimately the lack of interest is what prompted Deere to forget the project. Still with that said there are some machines out there that have been re-lifed. Either by Deere or by States like Missouri that did the work themselves. That's why I always tell people to look at the engines serial number if it is available to make sure what engine they have. There is nothing pure about these old machines. They are getting old enough that something has most likely been changed somewhere along the way. Either by former owners or by dealers and people that do equipment re-building from salvage components. Which there is nothing wrong with that! I do wish they would document the components they have changed and from what models they came from. It would make things a lot simpler for the people who buy these machines and the future repairs they will face.
For what is worth, that is what I know of the "Re-life Project".

[JWB Contracting]

My dad has been re-lifing Deere crawlers since the late 60's and is now something we do together on the weekends. We have done some fairly full rebuilds and just spent 80+ hours converting a 350B wide track to a narrow pad. Takes time when your removing broken frame and reverser bolts, pulling both finals to fixing a slipping clutch, make oversize pins for the dozer mounts, do a pad swap, etc. It just takes lots of labour and we only fix what needs fixing. We like the new owners to get a machine that they'll get some decent service of. The problem gets to be that potential purchasers only want to spend so much money and have difficulty seeing the difference between a heap of junk and a good useable tractor. They all talk about machines that go at auction for half my price. Starting a straight 350 6 way tomorrow, needs both steering clutches and Dozer mounts to start...

We use to rip down 1 of our 350c widepads every year and do some fairly extensive repairs. Since we bought a directional drill, our hoe cat use has been cut in half. We've done upgrades over the years including newer more powerful engines, custom built torsional isolator springs, upgraded outboard axles, etc. we couldn't find any better machine for the work we do, so we just have to keep fixing them. We would often start with a good narrow pad loader and swap our widepad kit onto it, use the best parts from the two, and then either build a narrow pad loader did resale or just keep the remains for parts. Much less expensive that a re-life but we've had the 2 machines in service for 30 years.

I think that Finning (cat dealer) still does certified rebuilds. I work for a pipeline construction company and could be a good alternative for our 10,000 hour D7R's as cat stopped making this model.

[LeonardL]

I need to add that when MDC and others were lobbying Deere for the re-life project, there were those who didn't see the need in rebuilding this older equipment. They simply saw where the move should be towards bigger and more popular equipment. They were right!
The MDC was looking to keep an old business model of using a two ton truck with a roll back bed to haul these machines to and from very remote fire locations. Wild land fire suppression was a job the 350s were great at performing. They were light enough and small enough to be hauled on this two ton truck format. This made for fast response times and quick recovery times for the fire crews.
However, Deere and other companies were struggling to fit this size of machine into the growing global market. State and Federal agency purchases alone were simply not enough to make the 50hp to 60hp range machine a profitable venture.
The MDC, US Forest Service and other states were trying to muscle their combined purchasing power through the Deere market specialist lobby. Deere had tried to replace the 350 with the 400G which never gained any more footing than the 350 it replaced. The 400G was still globally not selling. It barely met domestic goals as the only customers were State and Federal agencies. Every one wanted a bigger machine of at least 70hp but still be able to move it easily on a small float behind a dump truck. Thus the 450 and others were the clear winner in all respects. They were also selling globally when the 400G was not.
So, through pressure from these important customers, namely the MDC and the US Forest Service, Deere implemented the re-life program. However when interest had suddenly fallen away, some say because of political pressures, the program was shut down. Deere actually saw what just about every mechanic in any given state agency or private contract repair shop for the Feds saw and that was let the individual agencies do their own re-life projects. Deere would then support that by being of what ever assistance they needed to be.
The MDC then went on a search for another alternative machine. They found the "Walden"! Which, thank God they only bought two of. These machines could have been great little machines if the company that built them would have taken them a step or two further than they did. Thankfully they didn't make it very far and they quit building them.
MDC along with everyone else finally admitted they needed to move on to bigger and better things. They started with 450Gs and now have a fleet of 450Hs and 450J LTs. They are selling the last of the 400Gs this year in the MDC auction. If any of you are interested in them, I would think twice! But that is a different story and you will find it to be rather opinionated for my part.

[kedorland]

Thank you for the detailed information. Interesting. Need to ask...with this drought have you had a fire problem this year?

Kevin from Iowa

[LeonardL]

Hey Kevin,
Yes, there have been lots of fires! Although no where near as bad as out West. People have been diligent to not burn so that has helped. Plus the fact that most counties in Missouri have "No Burn" bans in place that have some pretty stiff penalties if you have caused a fire.
Things are getting a little better as Missouri is finally getting a little rain to dampen things down. Plus, just the general rise in the humidity is a great help.
Thanks for asking!

[digitup2]

I never had a 400G but several of my competition had them they just couldn't push squat as far as I was concerned I saw one on a sand pile for a weeping bed beside where I was working and I could out do that thing with a JCB backhoe hands down why would you wast track wear and time in sand if rubber tires will out do the darned thing .Just my 2 cents worth !!.Digitup.

[LeonardL]

I don't want to even get started on 400Gs! I'm not going to say what I really think about them! Lavoy would probably remove me from this forum! I don't want to offend anyone that may own one! But basically, they have tons of power but you can't get that power to the ground! I can easily believe that any average backhoe could out perform one of them with a dead miss in at least one cylinder! Maybe two!
They were a great machine for fighting fires, I will give them that! You can see off of them as far as seeing the blade and a good view of your surroundings. They would maneuver well as long as you could keep traction. Their biggest issue was once you broke traction they would spin like crazy! I used to call them "Toe Eaters"! Because they were constantly coming in for new grousers. They were also bad for popping track pads. I had to keep at least a dozen track pads on hand just for lost pads on the 400Gs. We didn't have that issue with the 350s or 450s. Or any other machine for that matter!
I think the funniest thing I ever saw with one was when this 400G had thrown a track on a big fire. The area was steep, cut over hard wood forest and the track had come off at the bottom of a steep hollow. We had a 850J on the fire as well and he went down and literally pushed the 400G sideways all the way up the ridge to a road where we could get to it. He was dragging the thrown track behind him with a chain. Watching him shove this poor 400G, dirt, rocks and burnt out logs and all was one of the funniest things to watch. I told the operator of the 850J to just go ahead and bury it because it was most definitely dead!
I was never sure why Deere conceived the 400G. It was more of a mutation than it was a conception. It was supposed to replace the 350 but it didn't even come close. As I said, I don't want to even get started on the things! They are, as they say, something else!

[Lavoy]

Okay, I'll ask the dumb questions. I have never been around a 440G, but always wanted one. If I understood it correctly, you got a little more power, and the HLR of a 450. I can understand not being able to put the power to the ground in all conditions, but sometimes that would be the way I would want it I would think to alleviate drivetrain damage. In my soil type here, I have been in conditions where a 420 crawler with good grousers will not turn while driving empty in any gear above second without killing the engine. I could put 350 level power in a 420 and have a pretty good machine for right here. If I was at the farm, then it is a different story, but right here, a D8 with a 7' blade would be just about right.
Lavoy

[LeonardL]

I am going to try and give an objective look at a 400G. It's hard for me to do because of my personal opinions on the machine in general. So.. here is what they are.
A 400G is for the most part a 350C/D and a 450E put together. You are correct when you say that in certain conditions they would be the cats meow. Basically the 400G is built with a de-tuned 450Es 4219 engine at 60 horse power. Naturally aspirated.
You have the 450Es drive line from the engine drive clutch, HLR, transmission and ring gear. Then there is a modified 350C/D steering clutch housing and drive shaft coming out to the clutch pack / brake drum. The brake band, brake drum, clutch discs and engagement pistons are all 350C/D. The center clutch hub is a modified 350C/D. Modified as in the axle and hub splines are larger than the 350C/D axle and hub. They look very similar but they are different.
The final drives are very similar to the 350C/D but are slightly larger. From that point out through the sprockets and tracks it is all 350C/D.
The rollers, upper and lower are all 350C/D for the exception of the upper rollers stand which is different than the 350s stand. The upper rollers axle is still the same as the 350s.
Hydraulically it is all 450E with the exception of the lift cylinders, angling cylinders and being 350C/D on early models. The early models had a modified 350C/D angling frame and blade. On later models they had there own cylinders that were slightly different as in a little larger and different ends on the rams. The later models had a modified 450E pivot point and tilting system and the blade was also larger, more 450E like. These were all good modifications that helped the overall machine.
In respect to my opinion of the 400G? Well, I had to work on these machines in some of the most adverse and remote conditions. My dislike for them is largely because they are hard to work on in the best of conditions. When you add poor conditions like a fire coming at you or just the smoke from the fire and you can't get the thing going, it became very frustrating. I had at least six different occasions where we had to rake a line around the machine and back fire this line so it didn't get burned up in the main fire. I can honestly say there was never a time that I enjoyed working on these machines. Everything about them is crammed into as tiny of a space as was possible. I never quite understood why the Deere engineers thought that it had to be so tiny and tightly packed. Give me a 350 or a 450 any day over a 400G.
With all of this said and in spite of my personal opinion, I have to admit they are a good machine. Especially the later models that have the heavier blade system. I know I have given them a pretty poor rating and it isn't all the machines fault.
The biggest issue is the fact that getting the power to the ground is hard to do. They do tend to spin out quickly. In rocky conditions they will pop track bolts and loose track pads. Had Deere given them their own larger track system rather than putting 350 under carriage might have helped. However, with a little patients and running more in the lower gears and on the low side of the HLR you can work with these machines. Lowering the engine RPM also seemed to help. Most of the issue was the operator getting lulled into thinking they had all of this power and they should be able to do more than the machine was really capable of doing. So it isn't entirely the machines fault.
Another real, developing issue with these machines is parts. The last word I got from Deere was they were considering to not continue to support a parts supply for the 400G. With 350s or 450s that's not a real big issue because there are so many of these old machines out there in the salvage market. There aren't many 400Gs out there for salvage.
Clutch discs, brake bands and drums are probably okay sense they are largely 350C/D. Engines and drive line are largely 450E. But for now it is unclear what exactly Deere is going to do.
Most people that would buy one of these machines for farm or ranch work or maybe light contracting would be okay. They will probably last them a life time. After all they are a Deere! The one thing to remember though, is you can probably buy a 450 for the same money as one of these 400Gs. Would anyone be okay to buy one of these machines? Absolutely! The last thing I want to do is stand the way of someone buying a 400G. I pick at them because of my personal contact with them as a mechanic. It is strictly my opinion and it is a biased opinion on my part. I personally prefer a 350 or a 450.
I hope this helps!

[Lavoy]

I had always thought that for our own use one would be fine. Main reason I would take one over a 350 would be power, and the HLR. Main reason over a 450, is easier to haul around due to weight, but that is not really that big of an issue.
I know where there is a gorgeous straight 450 that looks like it has been sitting for 20 years at least, but can't be bought for love of money, so probably won't ever have either.
Lavoy

[vestor_guy]

Lavoy, at some point it will be for sale. I bought my 1978 450c in 1982 when it had about 1500 hours for my Dad to use on the farm. I wanted a premo tractor so I swapped the undercarriage to another 450C and put all new on that one.

After 30 years, I just sold it when it had just about 1750 hours. In those 30 years, it only got about 250 hours.

I also had a friend that wanted to buy a cherry Navy A-1 Skyraider owned by a guy in NY. For 5 years, it was not for sale and last year he got a call out of the blue to see if he was still interested. His "new" wife didn't think he should fly it any more. My friend could not be happier and takes it to many airshows around the country.

[Lavoy]

Uh, hate to say it, but for an A-1 skyraider, I could find another wife!
Lavoy

[LeonardL]

Dude, you said a mouth full there!!