1975 450B Turbo 65 h.p. Winter Starting

[Gunpig]

I've had my 450B for about three years now. I bought it when I built a retirement home on 15 acres to use for odd jobs, keeping my road, walking trails etc. She's in good shape for and ole lady, runs like a champ and the previous owner spent about $12,000 on it to fix various things. I paid less than he spent on the crawler and everything works well at this time. John River Equipment, the local dealer has performed all work and maintenance on the machine for years. However, they charge $750 just to come service the ole lady and I just think that's way too high to change oil, all filters and adjust the steering once a year. My problem has always been the ole gal won't fire during winter months. She cranks and runs like a dream during spring, summer and fall but never in the winter. I've read post here about these old machines won't crank sometimes until it's 70 degrees. She's always been kept in a covered shed/building, never left to the elements etc. Is there a way a novice can resolve the winter starting problem? She's always required a very small shot of ether to start unless she's been running and is still warm. Any tip would be helpful. I use two batteries in-line and they're brand new and kept at full charge.

[KenP]

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[Gunpig]

Thanks for the reply Ken. I think I can do a block heater. I've never worked on heavy stuff but do pretty well with tools, motors, cars, tractors and such. As far as I can tell the starter spins the engine well. The engine normally turns maybe twice before starting when warm, after she's run awhile it'll fire immediately. Also, I looked at the bucks sheet the previous owner spent on the machine before I bought it and the starter was replaced then by James River Equipment, the local dealer. Since then the hobs meter shows about 900 hours on the new starter. Do you know if anyone on this site sells block heaters for my 450B? Thanks again.

[KenP]

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[Lavoy]

You need to differentiate between block and tank heaters. I don't believe 450's, at least the early ones have any frost plugs, so you will need a tank heater. If the head layout is similar to a 350, you will have a hole in the upper rear corner of the head that has the temp gauge sender in it. What I do (on a 350) is put a tee in that location. The temp sender goes back in the top, and a hose barb goes in the side. Then on the LH side of the block (again on a 350) there is a block drain cock. You will remove this and replace it with a hose barb, most tank heaters will have this fitting included. Run a hose from this fitting to the bottom of the tank heater, and a hose from the tank heater to the fitting at the top of the head. Fill with anti-freeze and plug in.
Size depends on engine size and how fast you want it to warm up. I am not a believer in plug it in for half an hour and you are good to go. Say you have a 1500 watt tank heater which would be quite large on a 450. You have the same amount of heat as a blow dryer. You have a 500lb engine that is at or just above zero, how much could you warm that engine up with a blow dryer in half an hour?????????, almost nothing.
On a 350, I prefer an 850 watt heater, but sometimes they are hard to find. I put a 1000 watt on the 350 I have now. If I know I am going to use the crawler later in the day or even afternoon, I plug it in in the morning sometime. At pretty much any temp you want to pick, when I go out to start it, the block and head are warm to the touch, maybe 100 degrees or more. On somewhat warmer days, and if it is inside, the temp gauge will actually register operating temp if you turn the key on. Other than the cold oil in the pan, that engine thinks it is the middle of July on a hot day, and starts like it too. Some people think they get too hot if you plug them in long term. That engine runs at 200 degrees, how is a tank heater going to hurt it if it warms it up to 130 degrees? Another arguement is cost. A 1000 watt tank heater for me is about 8 cents an hour to run. If you plug it in 4 hours, that is 32 cents. How much life does not craking up a cold engine add to the life of that engine? I don't know, but I bet it more than pays for the cost of electricity. At $3 fuel, you don't have to idle a cold engine long at warm up to make up that 32 cents either.
Tank heaters should be readily available at any auto parts store, fleet farm, truck shop, etc. If you can't find one if you area, you can look online, or if all else fails, I can get you one here, everybody sells them.
Lavoy

[Gunpig]

Thanks both KenP and Lavoy. I got your drift on the heater. I think I can handle it from here with no problem. I didn't realize it was a regular heater setup. I was afraid it was some special gizmo that was used on dozers/diesels. We don't have a great need for them here in N.C. unless your in the western part where I am just below Mt. Mitchell (highest mtn peak east of the Mississippi and Grandfather Mtn both standing above 6,000 feet. We seldom get below -10 on the mountain tops but with wind chill we can get on down there at times. You don't run dozers/crawlers on those days anyway. Thanks so very much for your help from the Tar Heel State.

[CELSESSER]

Gunpig,
I spent 10 years down in Morgantom, 50 miles east of you. Did a lot of hiking all up and down the App trail and escaped the heat on the weekends up along the parkway. Not a lot of level ground in them thar parts.

Chuck

[Gunpig]

I know Morganton well Chuck as I was born in Marion, N.C. at the base of Mt. Mitchell. Back in the 40's when my father was in college he ran a dozer crew during the summer pulling and installing pipe to the top of Mt. Mitchell. You had to know what you were doing to drive dozers up that mountain side. June snow showers are very common on Mt. Mitchell. Morganton has had a tough winter at the 1500' level with night temps staying in the low 20's. That's cold for Morganton, N.C.

[Gunpig]

Oh happy days are here again, at least for now. Lavoy was right on the money. A 1975 450B Turbo does not have frost/freeze plugs so you can't install a engine block heater the easy way. Also found out they had/have a factory installed engine heater for my year model and you can still buy it from JD today. It's very involved and I wouldn't even consider all the tearing apart and installing that sucker requires........geeezzz. Anyway, we've had a couple of warm days so I decided to give it a whirl with fully charged batteries. As soon as I started I notice there was no smoke coming from the stack. I said to myself, Uh Oh, air in the fuel lines as I had read in the manual several years ago if you let them sit all winter drain the fuel lines for air before starting the next spring. Was the manual ever right. I bled the primary and secondary filter as well as the line to the fuel pump about four times before I got all the air out and got her to fire. When she finally fired she was off and running. Sure was good to hear ole Betsy humming again. I'm sure there will be something else soon enough.