350 ( resurrection )

[Patrick]

First off what great site. I have been following many of the threads with much interest.

A few months ago I bought a non running JD 350 at a bank auction for 1200. What fun I had loading it on a roll back truck in -20 degree weather.

I bought the machine for use on my brothers small farm. Thought it would be usefull if we could get it running.

But now the getting it running part. The story we got was that it had starter trouble. The starter solenoid was missing, also the fuel pump and the fuel filters. My thinking on this is that the fuel pump and the fuel filters would have to be removed to get the starter out. And all the parts missing got thrown in the scrap bin when the place was cleaned out. I know, a bit of a gamble but I did not bid any more than I was willing to loose, and if need be we can part it out to recover any lose.

First thing I did was remove the starter. Dismantled it, inspected it and reassembled with a new solenoid. I put the starter back on the engine. It rolls over pretty good.

Next is where it gets a little sour. I dont have a Deer dealer close to me. I stopped at the local autoparts store and they ordered me a fuel lift pump. The pump I got was a RE27667. While installing it seemed like I had to really press hard to get the pump to seat against the block, when I bolted it in. When I lift the priming lever it seems like there is nothing there. Just didnt seem right, like it's already tight on the cam lob.(if thats what it runs on) I called a Deere dealer and they told me, (off the top of his head and not looking up any numbers) that the pump should be a RE42211, and that the pump I got does cross over and should work. And maybe I just got a cheap aftrermarket pump. Sort of satisfied I hooked up the pump to a cheap fillter and ran a line to a brand new 2 gallon can just for a run test. I didnt want to buy a expensive filter set if the engine needs a rebuild first.

I cranked engine over and it didnt fire. Cracked open the the line at each injecters while cranking, no fuel. I found a wire off at the injection pump, replaced. Now while cranking fuel sprays from the loose injecter lines. I tightend, and cranked the engine over but it still does'nt fire. While trying to start the temp was around 20 degrees. The machine had been sitting for many years. Maybe it is just to cold out

Im going to order the manual when I get my next check. but what do you guys think. Am I on the right track

John Deere 350

(below seat)
Type: T4E3D
Serial: 114558T

(engine casting)
T32339
T32347
0 D

(plate on engine)
Type: M43TE
Serial: 173298T


Thanks
Patrick

[jtrichard]

now that you have fuel to the injectors are you getting white smoke when cranking? check and see if the pump is timed right if it is like a 2010 there will be a hole in the bell housing that you can see a timming mark on the flywheel and there is a small cover on the injector pump about 5/8 by 1 inch that has two small screws take that off and you will see two very fine lines that have to line up with each other and number one cyl. has to be on the compresion stroke for firing as for the temp yes 20 deg. will be hard starting spray WD40 in the intake not through the air cleaner as you crank. Its a diesel you need fuel/air/timming and compresion if you have these it will run

[Patrick]

Ok I'll take a look at it in the morning. I did see something coming from the exaust. It was warmer out today but it still didnt fire

thanks
Pat

[jtrichard]

if no smoke then no fuel

[mini kahuna]

350 has a long history of cold start problems,deere had many trys at fixing it....some worked some didn't.
that being said I would guess you have a low compression problem,machine probably had a tired engine and was parked and set until you came ago.
a compression test would be my next step and you can found out for sure whats going on.

[jdemaris]

check and see if the pump is timed right if it is like a 2010 there will be a hole in the bell housing that you can see a timming mark on the flywheel

350 uses a timing hole and timing pin. The special pin is attached to the engine as part of one of the bolts that holds the engine in. You remove the bolt and turn it upside down to use the timing pin end. Then turn the engine over by hand while putting pressure on the pin until if locks into the TDC hole in the flywheel. You do NOT want to do this with the starter motor since it turns too fast and can break the pin.

[jdemaris]

350 has a long history of cold start problems,deere had many trys at fixing it....some worked some didn't.
that being said I would guess you have a low compression problem,machine probably had a tired engine and was parked and set until you came ago.
a compression test would be my next step and you can found out for sure whats going on.

Most of the early 350 diesels were excellent cold starters - much better than the later C series. I don't remember exactly when they started getting bad, but when the new 350Cs came out, they were horrible and at their worst. And, it wasn't just the Deere industrial with the problems. Deere Ag 40 series farm tractors were also miserable starters. Industrial was "fixed" when the D series came out, and AG got "fixed" when the 50 series came out. Night-and-day difference for both.

I've worked on many an old 350 diesel that would start so fast it would scare you. In fact, I went over an looked an early 350 for sale a few weeks ago. The machine was falling apart, with a loose reverser and broken side-frames and final drives. Also only had one small car battery stuck into it, and no block heater. When I came to look at it, it was 25 degrees F and had not been started in a month. Cranked it over for about five seconds - very slowly, and it started right up. That sort of thing was typical for many of the older machines. I'll add that my Deere 300 backhoe diesel (same old 350 engine) also starts great. In fact, outstarts any other diesel I own.
I know that with at least some, some good starters got worse over time with improper too thick head gaskets and bad valve jobs leaving valves too deep in the heads. But, generally speaking, we rarely had cold starting issues with the old ones - just the newer. Sometime during production of the C series, Deere started using engines built in Saran, France, and they were MUCH better again - and started like the old 350s.
We had a worse go-around with customers when the C series came out -than anything else we ever sold. We had many customers trading in their good starting but old and worn 350s, for new 350Cs and they did not start half as good. That was kind of hard to explain. We also had the problem for inconsistency. We have a dozen brand new 350Cs parked in our lot. Go out on a cold morning at 20-30 degrees F, and one or two might fire right up - whereas the others would hardly start at 50 degrees F, and when they did they'd skip, sputter, and smoke for a long time. Deere sent engineers down to our place trying to find a fix - both from industrial and from the ag department. It took years before a real fix was found (overheight pistons). Deere told us the main overall issue was this: When the older machines were built in the 60s, quality control used much tighter machining specs when engines were built. All allowable plusses and minuses had a narrow field. Then, Deere widened all the allowable tolerances to cut down machining costs. If you happened to buy a new machine that had most parts the least desirable end of the spectrum, you were screwed. This included piston standout above block, height of cylinder block above crankshaft throws, height of piston rings, depth of valve in head, etc. Deere tried to find a work-around for badly assembled engines. The only fix that worked fairly well was a special piston set, but the fix did not work perfectly for all engines.

[Patrick]

What great info. I can see I'm going to need that manual. I dont give up very easy. I beleive that the machine is a 1970 and in your range of good starters. (if I dated it rite) There is nothing better than making an old machine run again. I did not wake to the nicest weather today, 25 degrees. I dont think I'm going to get anything done today. Could be the end of the week before I do anything.
I saw the bolt with the timing pin you discribed. If this was a gas I would have no problem understanding the timing marks, but with it being a deisel Im not quite following the timing process.
I tried to pull an injecter yesterday to check compression but they were locked in tight.
Also got to get the Excavater and either lift or remove the loader. That makes working on it a real treat.

Pat

[Patrick]

The snow is finally gone, with the 3 days of down pouring rain. Hard to beleive a little more than a week ago we had a foot of snow over a day and a half.
I got back to working on it, this weekend. A friend of my dads stoped by to help. We found that the fuel coming out at the injecters have no real pressure. It just sort of blurbs out. He said the pump is probably shot. It has the Roosa Master CBC331-1AL. I have read a lot of the posts already on these pumps. So I geuss I'll be looking for a replacement. I Took out the timing pin and diesel fuel came out (should this happen?). I then rotated the engine till the pin droped in. I then pulled the pump. I'm pretty sure there was fuel were the shaft comes out of the engine also.
So thats where I'm at now. I e-mailed a salvage yard about a pump and will probably here back somtime next week. Any other suggetions? I'm all ears.

Thanks,

Pat

[jdemaris]

We found that the fuel coming out at the injecters have no real pressure. It just sort of blurbs out. He said the pump is probably shot. It has the Roosa Master CBC331-1AL.

Why do you think the pump is the problem? Granted that parts aren't made anymore for the pump. But that being said, if it still turns over (isn't seized) it's likely that it still works. They were very good pumps. In fact, had less problems that the DB and JDB pumps.

I don't understand your statements about the lack of fuel pressure. The injection pump has nothing to do with determining fuel injection pressure - it is all done by the injectors in the engine. If you unhook, or loosen the injectors to see if fuel is coming out of the lines - NO injector pump can make any pressure there. It will just dribble out, as it should. Once you tighten the line, the pressure will rise to whatever the fuel injectors are set at. Not much different then when you turn on your kitchen water faucet. When the water comes out, there is no pressure - unless you stick your finger over it and block it off. But, a kitchen faucet has more flow. The injection pump on a tractor only sends a drop or two on each fuel pulse.

[Patrick]

I guess we assumed it was bad because of the fuel in opening where the shaft goes into the pump. Then again neither of us know a whole lot about. Maybe theres suposed to be fuel there.