1960 440IC buying advice needed

[DcrockerinMaine]

Hi everyone,

I'm s new member, and may be making my first dozer purchase. I have several old ford tractors so am familiar with gas engines, but need some help before I jump in.

I am looking at a 1960 440IC gas, 5 speed transmission with an inside blade (#63 I think) not far from my home.I gave it a pretty good look yesterday, but due to very heavy rain, couldn't spend as much time with it as I wanted so will need to go back next weekend.

Here is what I know, first the good - it started right up, with just a touch of choke. it sounded good running, with no smoke. All 5 forward gears and reverse gear worked fine. Both steering clutches engaged fine and the dozer spun easily. The hydraulics are strong, easily lifting the front of the machine off the ground, and the blade rose quickly and smoothly with no jerks or pauses. The undercarriage looked ok. The pins are round, all the shoes are tight, and the rails and chains look straight and solid. The tracks were a little over tightened so I couldn't get an accurate 5-pin measurement but will double check that when I go back. Most of the tin is nice and straight, but some dings here and there. It does have a fairly new shiny paint job, but not of professional quality as there is some overspray here and there.

Now for what doesn't work: the gearmatic winch doesn't work. I don't recall which model number the winch is. The reverser doesn't seem to work. The brake pedal on the floor is either disconnected or totally out of adjustment - it went straight to the floor with no resistance. Some of the qauges are broken. At some point, the PO replaced the generator with an alternator. Some wiring had poor splices, It has a rops that looked solid, with the front posts connected tot he front of the machine well, but the rear four posts were farm welded onto the fenders and on top of the winch body.

I want a dozer for fairly light work on my woodlot - moving brush, log piles, and some trail construction, but am a weekend warrior so the machine certainly won't live a hard life.

The seller is asking $6500, which seems high to me, though it seems to be a functional, working machine.

Are there any other obvious checks I should make to be certain I'm not buying someone else's problem?

Any advice guys?

Dan

[gregjo1948]

If the tracks are tight, it seems like it would be a good time to measure for wear. Look to see how much farther the tracks can be tightened. Watch the front idlers when turning to see if there is slop or try to move them with a crow bar. Look at the sprockets to see how pointed the teeth are and if they're egg shaped or round between the teeth. If the reverser isn't working, it probably has been replaced with a direct drive. It's nice to have a reverser, but if all the forward and reverse gears work OK, it's just not as valuable. Gauges are cheap and easy to install. Unless you feel you really need a winch, don't worry about it. Don't let the seller convince you it's a cheap or easy fix. Quite hard and expensive to find parts for them. It's probably an 8A or 8G. If you buy the machine, let me know which it is and perhaps I can help. I would say $6500 is high and think $5000 or less should buy it. I sold a good running 440ICD this spring, with fair undercarriage and a working winch for $4800. Good luck, gregjo1948

[whiteclipse16]

Sounds like the machine is pretty sound mechanically. The problems you listed are pretty simply fixes, ie. wiring and gauges.
The brake pedal sounds to be unhooked. One way to check if the brake bands are ok would be to pull both steering clutches back to engage both brakes (while pushing the clutch in).
$6500 seems high, but for your area it might be right. I know the guys in Canada get pretty top dollar for a machine that would look like the one you're looking at.

[DcrockerinMaine]

Thanks for the input guys. I hope to get back to the machine to do a more thorough look at the undercarriage. I've read that 23" across 5 pins is good, whereas 23.51" is worn out. But II can't seem to find a picture of the exact process of measuring the distance of 5 pins. When measuring, do you measure from outside to outside or inside to inside.

I'm also trying to upload a pic, not sure if this will work:

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[Lavoy]

Judging by front idler position, pins and bushings are shot. The winch is an 8A, I have some parts available, but if a lot of rust or damage, then you might be out of luck.
Lavoy

[DcrockerinMaine]

Thanks for the input. Here are a few more pics of the undercarriage. Would appreciate your thoughts.



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[jtrichard]

the 23" is center to center easiest way is left side of pin #1 to left side of pin #5 and the tighter the better.. your measurement will be much more accurate ...looks like there is a lot of wear as lavoy says ... but if you are not going to use it a lot instead of repin you could turn the pins and bushings and get many years of use

[Paul Buhler]

My two cents.
Sprocket shown looks good, Front and top idler looks good , track adjuster looks sound, tracks while worn, aren't at the end of the frame, so some life left. Chain height looks ok - some life left. Rock guards aren't all beat up indicating that rolls are still working and not worn out; so undercarriage isn't an immediate concern - should be loosened some, however. Lavoy has pins and bushings again if you decide on an undercarriage upgrade. Your pin to pin measurement will tell you more.
Gearmatic 8a winch, while missing control handle, appears intact which is a plus. I'm in the process of upgrading the clutch/brake on mine which is in repairable shape - read everything came apart without breakage. It will cost about $50 for the clutch slave rebuild kit; I'm getting a price to replace the internal hydraulic line with brake fluid resistant hose (EDPM)and new fittings ( a guess- $50) a new main bearing ~ $43.00 and relined clutch bands ~$250 plus shipping. I have a new brake band and the brake slave is intact. Lavoy estimated $1000 to rework the internals - not far from the mark. Mine worked very well before an oil leak soaked the clutch bands. It is a powerful winch worth fixing in my mind, but doesn't need to be a top priority. BTW, I can send you a Gearmatic manual if you email me.
The other challenges have been discussed. Price seems high to me as well considering that you need to figure out and fix a number of issues.
Pretty paint job and generally nice looking machine means that you may be more willing to take on these chores as compared to a machine that looks and feels beat. Good luck with your decision. Paul

Edit: ask him for the winch handle off the other crawler

[Lavoy]

Seems like a lot of odd track link wear, like the trackframes are not square and parallel, or been running on a lot of sidehills. Also looks like a fair amount of pin boss wear which indicates bad rollers, but both of the things I mention could be a function of the rollers. I would probably think fairly hard before I would rebush those rails, but harder to tell when you are not standing there.
Unless he can give you a lot of receipts for work done recently, I think the price is way out of line.
Lavoy

[gregjo1948]

The winch controller on the fender can be very expensive to repair. Hard to find parts and pricy when you do. I found a couple places with rebuilt controllers priced at $650.00 plus your core. I fabricated my own using 2 new single resevoir master cylinders. Using some scrap mounting steel,new brake lines and fluid,2 turn buckles, and an old hand lift handle from a cultivator, I spent about $120.00 and a half day of work. You might want to ask the seller if the tracks came off while turning or on a sidehill. It's a sign of bad rollers and/or bad front idlers. It may not be a deal breaker but, it a real pain to reinstall one. It seems to happen on a hill and in the mud, and usually the weather is nasty also. gregjo1948

[DcrockerinMaine]

Well, I had time to take a longer second look at the 440 this afternoon. I managed to jack the dozer off the ground to check the rollers. 1 on each side was very loose and wobbly, and one of the right seemed seized. Everything else seemed ok, but the deal breaker was the seller wouldn't move on price! It only took a second to thank him for his time and drive away.

I'm checking out a 1010 with a 6 way blade tomorrow. A little further from home, but lower asking price thank the 440 I checked out today.

Dan

[gregjo1948]

Let us know about it. The 6 way hydraulic blade is a plus. If it's a diesel, it will probably be a hard starter. Should not use starting fluid to assist.(can harm) Make sure the fuel primer and the glow plugs are working. I would rather have the gas engine due to the hard starting diesel.I believe,other than the engine(gas or diesel), most of the parts will interchange with the 440. gregjo1948