440icd late model steering and final

[440icd]

Hello Lavoy and everyone.
I have been working on my loader and Iam racking my brain. I am just not happy with the way things are going together. I need some help.

The final drive is on but I have not bolted it all up yet.

Late model 440 icd Steering clutches.


I installed the final drive this weekend but I have a few questions, all fibers and steels are in.
I found my steering clutch tool to set my steering clutch fingers.
It’s a rebuilt pressure plate, I noticed that I had to adjust all three adjustment nuts all the way in, as you screw these down the fingers go up. There is still very little space between each coil on the springs so I am worried that there isn’t enough room for them to compress to let loose the clutches when steering.
1. Is there two different steering clutch tools for late model and early model 440 crawlers?

I put new sleeve, springs, cups, balls, throw out bearing, carrier, and all in final drive.
I adjusted throw out bearing all the way out (pushed it out )at the nut that holds it in position on the rotating cam.
It seems that when you put together a new set up that the throw out bearing would be all the way back in, the cam slot instead of all the way forward. Its almost as if the fingers on the pressure plate should be up farther maybe about 1/4 inch in height. But I have no more room to do that on the adjustment nuts.

Almost seems like if I was able to add maybe 1/4 inch material to the throw out bearing carrier, to get the bearing out farther that would do it.???? Is ther two different carriers?

Almost forgot, I was looking at the clutch adjustment tool for the ".750" or so dimention, from the locating surface (face of the clutch drum) to the top of the fingers, on the clutch tool, mine is not .750, its bigger. whats up with this???? I can give you an exact dimention right off the tool after I measure it tonight.

What do you think?
Sound like something wrong?
_________________
Scott in wa.

opps I put this in the wrong forum, I will =try to delete the other.

[jac]

Scott:

I had a similar issue when I installed my new clutches. Had to tighten the adjustment screws all the way down to get the pressure plate fingers up far enough. I actually could not get one correct so adjusted one side with the fingers slightly lower. When I did this and installed the finals, I also ended up with the throw out bearings near the end of the cam. The problem for me was that the steering linkages had so much play in them that by the time you pulled the steering levers the required 1 5/8" for adjustment, the cam was just starting to move. This required the bearing to be at the very end of the cam to engage. I removed the finals. tightened up the linkage arms to remove any play and have the cam start to move as soon as the levers are pulled. This resulted in less play and the throw out bearing could be moved back on the cam quite a bit.

Not sure if this is the same problem you have but check the linkages to insure they are adjusted. You will hate the feel of the levers if you do not.

[Lavoy]

Scott,
You are doing it right, it is where is should be. If you had the fingers farther up, you would have less clutch.
Lavoy

[440icd]

Thanks for the reply jac.
I need all the help I can get.

I did the other side as well and had the same problem, but put it in and ran it anyway. But I was hoping to find out why this is on this side.

Ok, here goes.
I under stand that the linkage has some slop. I am trying to envision this, But that would only make the linkage sloppy correct? The distance from the clutch fingers to the face of the throw out bearing will not be affected. Correct? Since the linkage has a mile of slop in it you would have to pull back the steering lever a mile before the cam rotates on those three balls to move the throw out bearing out toward the clutch fingers. Therefore if it was just linkage you wouldn't have to adjust those darn clutch fingers all the way out because that distance between the bearing and the fingers still should remain the same.

I Can picture a longer throw out bearing carrier that positions the bearing out farther thus I would set it back into those angled slots for the position of the bearing.
What I see, I believe is there is a large gap from the carrier to the cam mechanism. Of course you cant see it but If you have to move it out there is a gap, It should sit all the way back into that cam when new stuff is put in correct?
What the heck is wrong with my set up, Iam going crazy, only because I want to fix it right....
Anyone please feel free to chime in.....


Scott

[440icd]

Lavoy,
Ok I see your post,
Do you mind maybe explaining it to me???
Maybe Iam thinking backwards on the fingers, shoot I don't know.
All I know is that the clutch finger adjustment screws, on the back of the pressure plate , there are three of them, are all the way down(coils on springs are very tight) and the throw out bearing has to be out as far as it goes in that slot, the bolt that holds it there is barely on.

This is correct?
Thanks
Scott

[440icd]

double post deleted

[440icd]

double post, deleted

[Lavoy]

You are not looking at it correctly, and/or overanalyzing it.. As the clutch plates wear, the fingers will get farther away from the pressure plate frame, not clsoer. As the fingers move out, you must move the throwout bearing in to maintain freeplay. If you could not move the throwout bearing in, you could not remove the freeplay, and eventually you would have no clutch as there would be no face pressure because the throwout bearing is always in contact with the fingers. A properly adjusted steering clutch requires that the throwout bearing be all the way out on the casting. The adjusting bolt will be about half way out past the edge of the casting that holds the bearing holder.
3/4" is a rough measurement that will be obtained with a factory gauge, not a set in stone figure. My gauges are .125 taller because some people have had difficulty with setting their pressure plates that tight, so my gagues are modified to help alleviate this. Also when using the gauge to set the engine pressure plate, in some instances, it is not possbile to remove enough freeplay to make the clutch work properly.
The "turnbuckle" linkage betweent the steering lever shaft and the throwout bearing should ALWAYS be set so that the instant that you pull on a steering lever, the throwout bearing is moving outward. Any setting other than this, and the factory clutch adjustment procedure does not apply due to the fact that the steering lever has to be pulled too far back to actuate the clutch.
Lavoy

[440icd]

Oh well that kind of explains some things,
What about this,….

Right now I have to pull the lever way back to get it to move the throw out bearing,(just like jac) there is allot of slop, to the point where the cam rotates to far and "pops" balls come out of the holes.

Is this just a mechanical adjustment on the linkage?????????????

I did not adjust the linkages that connect to the cam on either side of the finals.

I pray it is....

one other thing,
what purpose does the sleave have, that slides into the throw out bearing? it doesn't contact anything on the pressure plate side does it??



What do you think.,
Scott

[Lavoy]

If the throwout bearing does not move the instant you pull on the steering lever, you will never be able to correctly adjust the steering clutch. You need to shorten the linkage until this problem is corrected.
Throwout sleeve holds the throwout bearing holder in alignment, has no other function.
Lavoy

[jac]

Scott:

The adjustment on the turnbuckle linkages is mechanical but inside the finals. I do not think they can be adjusted with the finals installed. I had to remove my finals and make the necessary adjustments. If they are not adjusted correctly, you will have to pull the steering levels a long way before the bearing will hit the pressure plate fingers since the cam does not move immediately. I took out about 1 1/2 inches of free play in the steering levers by making adjustments. Once adjusted, the cam starts to move as soon as the levers are pulled and the bearing will contact the fingers with less steering lever pull.

[440icd]

Yep,
I will have to slip the final off once again; I have had this thing of 3 times now in the same day, because things just didn't feel right, So One more time, at least.

1. I was thinking that if I pull the lever back and the cam starts to rotate immediately then there is no slop in the linkage, even though it has to rotate a long way, to the point of the balls popping out. is this adjustable
But
2. If I pull it back and it doesn't move for a while then that’s a linkage adjustment.

Correct?

Iam worried about the 1st one

Thanks for bearing with me today, I know I have been a pain.
scott

[440icd]

Lavoy,
See items 1 and 2 above.
Linkage adjustment only if there slop in it before the cam starts to rotate?

If it’s tight and the cam moves right away is it adjustable? Which means the bearing still has to rotate all the way out from the balls it’s on, out to the fingers.

Also I Put new springs in, but notice there is another set of holes, they are slightly forward of where the sprigs are now.
Are these for the same springs, maybe to increase the spring tension if moved into these holes???
Thanks
Scott

[Lavoy]

In addition to rotating, it must begin to move outward immediately as well.
If you can pull the steering lever back far enough to get the balls out of their sockets, you clutch is grossly misadjusted.
No idea what the other holes are for, but don't use them.
lavoy

[440icd]

So If I can pull the lever back until the balls pop out its miss adjusted.
It seems that there is a large space between the clutch fingers and the throw out bearing.
The throw out bearing is all the way out, can't go any farther.

1. As the clutch wears this gap or distance will decrease because the fingers on the clutch will move out, therefore causing at some point an adjustment to the throw out bearing to be set in farther, correct.

2. Approximately what should the gap be between the fingers and the bearing with a new setup? None??

3. Is there two different throw out bearing carriers 440, 430??? Early or late? maybe Some how, Some one put a replacement in and its the wrong one?

4. When I put the clutch together I put a fiber in first, there are more fibers and steels in mine than a early model 440, The ears on the last steel lines up with the drum on the outer face, its flush, On the large splined shaft that the fibers go on, was enough room to put one more fiber, but its not inside the drum on the out side but does sit on the splines.
I recall sending you a pic, do you remember? Just checking to make sure I set that up correct.

Trying to track down where the problem is.
I could take a few pics of the hole set up, so you can visually see what my set up looks like.
Scott