450B Priming Fuel system

[Sardog]

New to site, need some help please! I have a 1973 450B dozier it has been sitting for a while (never had a problem starting before) went to start it and noticed a leak in the injector return line down by my feet. Inspection revealed cracked return line so I replaced with a new fuel line but it seems it drained all the fuel from the injectors. So here's what I've done so far.
1. I have fuel at the filters and primed using the hand pump up to that point.
2. Turned the motor over and have fuel at the injector pump.
3. Injector lines are dry at the injectors/not pumping fuel.
4. I managed to get the front line "wet" but noticed the other return lines were in bad shape so I replaced those.
5. Now I guess I'm back to square one no fuel at the injectors.
How do you get fuel to the injectors without killing the starter and battery???

[Tigerhaze]

Welcome to the board!

This thread should be helpful to you- you may want to check the items mentioned because it sounds like very similar symptoms:

http://www.jdcrawlers.com/messageboard/ ... ring+vlave

In particular I am referring to whether you have fuel in the return line and whether the throttle is set correctly and/or the energizing wire for the pump. Also if the return line outlet at the tank is plugged with crud it may also cause issues in the fuel circuit from the pump. Did you see any "mouse turds" in the timing window? You probably haven't checked that yet but when you removed the return lines did you see what looked like mouse turds?

[Sardog]

Many things going on since then but I have managed to jump back on the project. The info you gave me has been very helpful thank you. Now this is what's happened since then.
I checked the return lines between the injectors and replaced them, No mouse turds.
Checked timeing window, No turds.
Then checked fuel tank, fuel didn't smell to good so I decided to go all the way and drain and put new fuel in it. Well it wouldn't drain, there was a thick tar like substance after poking around that was plugging it up. Once the fuel was out I let this thing ooze for about two weeks out in the hot sun.
The fuel filters.....first one was clogged with the same, Bowl was full of it. Second one wasn't as bad. So I cleaned up all the parts and blew out all the lines. New filters.

Now I pulled the top off of injector pump to see if the valve was moving freely.....nope. So I sucked the old fuel out (no turds in the fuel) of the pump and them sprayed some carb cleaner in there and it freed it up. I then full it up with fresh fuel. Checked the solenoid valve for function, a little sticky, a little spray, no more sticky. Works good, both electrically as well, top back on.

Now I'm primed all the way to the pump, I even filled the injector return line using a big syringe. Cracked the front injector line and turned it over, IT RAN, for about ten seconds and died. It didn't sputter, it just ran, the throttle was set about halfway. Anyway the lines went/were dry, while it was running I was trying to close the one line and open the other to get any air out. But long story short it's dead again. So back to square (air) one there's gotta be air somewhere. CAUSE THERE AIN'T NO FUEL!
So I bleed the fuel filters AGAIN
I bleed the fuel line to the injector pump AGAIN
I cracked the injector return line at the pump, it's got some bubbles, later went to fuel.
Pulled banjo bolt, nothing squirts out when I turn it over, it just wet burps.
After all my trial and error I have drained my battery.
Next day.......
Hey it's got a filter right there where the fuel line comes in don't it? Pulled that thing out, it didn't look good but I cleaned it all out. That might help a bit. Battery still charging. I tried the compressed air into the injector line supply hole. Thought I heard movement..... but I'm deaf in one ear so for all I know it could have been a a bowel movement.
I won't know anything until this battery is up to speed.

So that's what I know, has anyone had the "Black Tar sludge" in their fuel system or tank? The only thing I found that cuts it is carb and choke cleaner. No other fuel, fuel additive or solvent has yet.

[DrLoch]

You still have air in the system/body of the pump. I just went through this with my 1960 Fergusin Tractor with a 23C Standard Diesel. It has a CAV Pump which is a Roosa design, same as what you have. I also rebuilt my injector pump on my 450C. Have to get all the air out of the body or it will start and stop like you've seen until you do.

Make sure your battery is charged. Remove the return line from the top cover, the one with the little check valve in it. Then pump the lift pump until you have a solid steam of fuel, no air bubbles coming out of the top of the pump cover. Connect the return/check valve again. loosen the injector lines at the injectors, turn on the key so the stop solenoid is energized and then spin the engine over until you have a soild stream of fuel coming out of the lines at the injectors. Tighten the line at the injectors and then thry starting it again. If all air is bleed out it will start, might not run exactly right for a few secounds but should continue to run until all the air is purged out.

Let us know how you make out.

[gregjo1948]

Inspect that check valve that DrLoch mentioned. It's screwed into the injection pump and the return fuel line is then attached to it. You should only be able to blow thru it in the direction that will allow fuel to return to the tank.

[Sardog]

The "blow through" on the return line has already been done. Replaced it with all new lines as well. I'll take a look at the check valve, but cracking the return line I have fuel there........More to follow. Thanks gents.

[Sardog]

I guess the real question is how long does this "normally" take in the right conditions? Before one crashes a starter or battery. I think I'm pretty close, I just work it a bit at a time, let the battery cable and starter cool and try not to let them get too hot, come back crank a few times.........

[gregjo1948]

The "blow through" on the return line has already been done. Replaced it with all new lines as well. I'll take a look at the check valve, but cracking the return line I have fuel there........More to follow. Thanks gents.

There is supposed to be fuel in the return line but, it's supposed to travel back to the tank not to the injection pump. That is why the check valve is there.

[shinnery]

I think the black tar is ALGAE (sp) you may want to check google or someone about it. Find an algaecide to add to your fuel.
Bryce

[Sardog]

Algae? Buddy as much bottom/sea time as I got (Navy) I ain't never seen no "algae" that looked like that. But hey, I'm good, it was "I who came here" for the advice. Learn something new everyday. Here's for the great news......patience and perseverance. Yup, the dang thing started just about an hour ago. I have spent the last, oh say week and a half going back and forth with the battery. Running down to about 12.3vdc, I'd get about maybe 10, 10-15 second runs at a time trying not to heat things up. This time, first try she started kickin over, the fuel finally made it to the top and the rest is history.

But..........it didn't want to shut down. It did eventually but it took awhile, maybe a minute or two. I'm guessing the valve wasn't closing all the way. Well I put a little sea foam in the tank and let it run for about 30 min. cycled the throttle and it wants to shut down when you throttle down and it's slow to respond. So I'm guessing things are a bit sticky in the injector pump. But hey, it's running!

Any remedies on getting this puppy to flow a bit better without tearing the pump down?
Thanks again for everyone's help and recommendations, you guys have been great.

Off to tighten up the injector lines, we have a bit of weeping.........

[shinnery]

I have always heard it called algae but after I wrote the previous note I went googling myself and according to these folks it is "Microbial debris". Here is a link but google has plenty of stories about it.
http://criticalfueltech.com/faq.html
Bryce
Tin Can Navy ex--but I have been out over 53 years.

[Sardog]

Thanks for the intel there Bryce. I was on about 7 ships in 22 years. Saratoga was my first CV-60 not CV-3. did a Frigate, a tender, 2 mine hunters and 2 high speed vessels (HSV). Had a good run.........but anyway I put an additive in Power Service Diesel Fuel Supplement + Cetane Boost. But I tested it first on my "sample" this stuff went to work on it right away. AH HA! we have a winner! So then I dumped in the recommended, blah, blah, blah.......anyway after about 10 minutes of running I cycled the throttle and it seemed to respond better and not want to shut down like before. Then came the fuel shut test............that worked. Tested it two more times, test SAT.

OK now to get to the next challenge, I need an operator's manual for this thing so I can find all the little places for checking things like "trans fluid" Do I have to drop the whole pan to change fluids, etc? A free download would be nice but I do love my tech manuals.

They made that change in the Navy back in the early 90's, put all our tech manuals on CDs, I had my E-5 go and kill a bunch of trees and burn me 2 sided hard copies of all my manuals. Didn't have time to try and find something on a laptop to fix my gear much even know how to work one!

[jtrichard]

Here you go

http://www.ebay.com/itm/John-Deere-JD45 ... SwmfhX6WOz

[Sardog]

Raising the dead here but I just wanted to say "THANKS" for everyone's help. She's been real busy since I got it fired up. Worked it today as a matter of fact. Spent a lot of time running the battery back and forth to re-charge. Make man big and strong.......OK more like sore old bastard.

[Lu47Dan]

Sardog, you might want to check to see if the is a heavy acclumation of that sludge in the bottom of the fuel tank. A friend had his D4 quit running out in the woods because of the sludge plugged up the fuel supply line. We ended up pumping the fuel out of the tank, removing it and hauling the tank to his shop. Where we had to pressure wash the inside with hot water, doused it with high percentage chlorine bleach with a sprayer. After which we filled it with water and more bleach. We left it set for 5 days, before we drained it and than used a track torch to dry it out. We installed it back into the dozer, he has not had a problem since, that was 15 years ago. If the dozer is going to set more than a few weeks he adds a funguscide to 5 gallons of fuel and adds it to the tank.
Worth a look in the tank.
Dan